Everyone went a bit in the hole, Brooker says, reflecting on the process.
We all had our Stefan moment, Jones agrees, with a laugh.
Bandersnatchis an audacious piece of work.
Ad content continues below
So, it was obviously just getting too easy then?
Only doing the six original, conceptualBlack Mirrorfilms a year.
You must have thought I need a bit of a challenge?
[Laughter]
Annabel Jones:We obviously didnt know what we were letting ourselves in for.
Charlie Brooker:Wethoughtwe knew.
That was the thing.
It wasnt like we were going [puts on a silly voice] Erdy berdy, thisll be easy!
Thisll be just like any other episode!
You you realise, God, this is going to beawful.
CB:Im sure the tools are available.
There are tools for writing interactive fiction.
So we had to use a hybrid of everything.
I was using Final Draft and Scrivener and Twine and it was just like [another exhalation].
And thats on top of the logistical nightmare of coming up withanyof it!
How close didBandersnatchbring you to madness?
CB:We skirted around the edges of it a bit I think.
AJ:I think we all had our Stefan moment.
CB:Everyone went a bit in the hole.
AJ:Yeah, in the hole became the phrase of the film I think.
CB:People would go Oh, Im in the hole.
It was funny in the way that it went.
Everyonehad that moment of vertigo at some point.
Theyd just go zzzzzhhz.
But, you know, you live and learn!
And you pulled it off.
Well, it worked.
AJ:Were presenting it as a film, but an interactive film.
CB:But its got gamey… its got gaming… plumage.
But the beak is all drama?
CB:Yes, or its a drama cow driving a game… car?
Thats theworstanalogy that Ive ever thought of.
Have you considered the eventual end-point of this technology?
At some point maybe we could all be electing our politicians between Netflix specials?
AJ:[Laughs]
CB:In a way, its not new.
The only thing really thats new about this is that its streaming on Netflix.
Thats what feels new.
That and also its seamless, theres no gap between the elements.
We hope you have that emotional engagement with the protagonist.
You are with them, you feel for them.
But that may be my limited experience of other interactive things.
Have you seen the walkthroughs online that people have put together?
CB:I havent really.
They read like modern poetry.
Ill give you a bit of one.
Its interesting that people approach it in a different way depending on what theyre expecting.
That was deliberately enticing you to go back and have another go.
To get a good review for Bandersnatch?
AJ:[Laughs.]
Unlocking all the trophies.
AJ:But it doesnt endwell, it does sometimesit doesntendwith the game review.
You see Stefans reaction to it.
Its compelling him to go on and retry.
You just said then, Charlie, that Stefan cant have mental well-beinganda five-star review?
CB:No, I said he cant have a happy life and get a good review.Withinthe game.
There are often autobiographical elements inBlack Mirrorthough.
So how autobiographical isBandersnatch?
CB:Ihaventmurdered anyone, cut their head off and stuck it on my desk.
AJ:That branch is coming!
CB:That branch is a-comin!
Certainly there are elements of it.
There are conversations that he has in it that we had in real life.
And you, Annabel were saying take it out, its complicated enough?
CB:It was worth it.
AJ:Yes, it was.
CB:A lot of it is tongue-in-cheek.
Theres a sort of gag in that he gets a five-star review from this littlebastard… and actually Stefans life is fucking terrible, is quite funny to me.
That wasnt meant to be a grand statement though.
WithBandersnatch, is there a sense in which youve made an uncritiquableBlack Mirrorepisode?
CB:Apparently not!
Id have done this that and the other and now youve said go on then, have a go.
CB:Heres the ingredients, you cook it yourself mate!
You make the decisions, then itll be perfect sort of thing.
CB:Well, evidently not!
Originally the Netflix very-much-fourth-wall-breaking path was hidden.
Now if people experience that first off… its quite a divisive one.
Forthosepeople, it probably would have a different feel if it had come after the end credits.
You cant hey all of the people.
Its just going to disappoint people in myriad different ways.
[Laughs]
Youve at least made viewers vary their critiques.
CB:It varies the tone of their yelps of delight or moans of complaint [laughs].
Prior toBandersnatch, you said thatPlaytestwas the least well understoodBlack Mirrorepisode.
CB:In terms of people going what happened?
and not getting whats happening, yes.
Is that still the case, or hasBandersnatchovertaken it?
CB:Bandersnatchis deliberately… some people have said today whats the right ending?
The fact that theres a bunch of them is sort of the point.
I dont quite know what it is [laughs].
The disparity of that is sort of the pointin as much as it has a point.
They are there and together do collectively make a whole that should feel cohesive.
CB:They all make sense in a way off the central spine.
Has anybody told you theyve watched it entirely passively, without making any choices?
Because she dropped her remote control.
She dropped her remote control and then thought Ill just watch it then and see what happens.
She didnt get any sense of complicity in Stefans actions then?
But thats not the way to watch it.
I dont know what wed recommend in terms of the best way.
I think the best way to experience it is on a television.
you’re able to watch it on a phone or whatever but.
A quick question about Easter Eggs.
Tucker in Tuckersoft… is that from Grange Hill?
[Both laugh.]
Tucker is just…
Its the bar inSan Junipero…
CB:And the software company.
CB:NotGrange Hill.
Although Im always up for aGrange Hilltribute.
We had Todd Carty when we didA Touch Of Cloth.
AJ:Todd Carty!
CB:He was very lovely.
Todd Carty played himself.
CB:Those were production-designed.
They did a good job.
Often Id write the titles for things like that but they did those ones.
There are a lot of little Easter Eggs in there as well.
Easter Eggs for future episodes?
The way Pixar include something from their next film in the current release?
CB:Therearesome in there actually.
Not in WH Smith.
CB:Not going to say.
Oh my god
Do they love it in Romania?
CB:Well thats what they said.
We only met one Romanian today so its not a good sample [laughs].
Thats probably the biggest thing I took away from the book.
And how hellishheis to work with, obviously.
Those were the two main things.
Charlie, you seemed quite self-critical in the book?
CB:Just trying to get in first!
CB:The thing was, I really enjoyed that Russell T. Davies book.
CB:Yes, because its somiserablein some ways.
Its so neurotic and troubled.
Finally, were ten years fromDead Set…
CB:Now nearly eleven.
When it arrived on UK Netflix at the end of last year, did you revisit it?
CB:I played a bit of it.
It was the first thing you two made together, wasnt it?
CB:No, wed done theWipeshows.
AJ:It was the first drama wed done though.
And youre like fucking hell!
And also,whywere you watching that as a kid?
Theres a nostalgia element in it for some people.
Hopefully it stands up today.
It went up on the US Netflix a little while ago and people were then discovering it.
I wantA Touch Of Clothto go up.
I dont know if it will though.
How do you feel aboutDead Set, looking back?
In that way I see it very much as a sort of sister show.
Its its big sister.
Oh,Big Brother!
What a twat I am!
Why didnt I just say its its Big Brother?!
Black Mirror: Bandersnatch is available now on Netflix.
