This is a slightly spoiler-y interview.
Its best not to read it until youve seenInside Out.
Settling on that message and the story through which it would be told took years of experimentation and refinement.
Good news, no?
They werent even sayingmovie, remembers Rivera, laughing, Wed rather they said this is a really badmovie.
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Theres a lot of abstraction, explains Docter.
Specifically, what makes eleven-year-old girls tick?
Interview 400 of the day!
You must be bored of people telling you how brilliant your film is?
Pete Docter:Believe it or not, it doesnt get old!
Partly because of its use of recent psychological theory, but also because of its message.
More and more were seeing characters learn to deal with failure rather than punch-the-air success.
That seems like better storytelling.
I couldnt disagree with what you said.
Jonas Rivera:I love what you said.
I just thought thats really cool if we could make a movie thats coming from something truthful.
I think thats what the audience craves.
Thats what I crave.
Its a very empathetic film.
Then, I was just in pieces.
Is that the point that people generally fall apart?
PD:Yeah, thats the one.
JR:That really does seem to work and impact people.
PD:It got Richard!
JR:It got Richard Kind as he was recording it.
[To PD] Hes really crying in that read, isnt he?
I think its something we shared professionally and personally.
I think a lot of people do and I think thats why that scene works.
PD:Oh yeah?
Its in there too.
In all of them theres a thread about the adult world impinging on like, the exuberance of youth.
Is that something you were aware runs through all of your work?
PD:No [laughs] Thats interesting.
I just made it up then!
So as you go in there, you discover it.
You find out what these films have to say, but its not something that Im conscious of.
I dont know of any other way of approaching things.
Theres some game where you deal off the deck and if you get 21, you win?
And I feel like as an artist, thats what were drawing from.
Were drawing from that as well, from the unconscious stuff were just intuitively following our guts.
Its that truth you were talking about.
PD:If it feels truthful then hopefully thatll shine through.
Youve always had an interest in psychology though?
InPalm Springs, you had a gag that your dinosaur was called Sigmund and your caveman was called Freud.
PD:[laughs] Yeah, I was interested in Psychology and Philosophy.
It would be stuff like IfSmith passes the test,thenhe can get the job.
Syllogism and all that?
PD:Yeah, exactly.
That actually ends up being a large part of our discussions in Story.
So what was the mathematical storytelling formula forInside Out.
If Joy… Then…?
JR:You put forth pretty early a pretty good thesis and antithesis.
What that arc would look like.
The antithesis is Life is full of unexpected loss and pain and suffering.
JR:We honored that.
We kept that whiteboard, like, thats right!
You had an early idea involving a Thanksgiving parade?
JR:The Thanksgiving play!
At one point, we had a little play and Riley wanted a particular part in it.
There was great debate on how we would do it.
This film was very fragile.
There was a lot of debate first of all on stakes.
How high are the stakes?
I thought this was interesting because we always talk about everything having stakes, high stakes.
What happens to Woody?
What are the ultimate stakes on him?
Thats just an example of all the variations and things we tried to honour that original thesis to antithesis.
Lets talk about making changes.
The animation community, compared to live-action movie-making, always seems more supportive, more collaborative.
PD:[Nods].
Though you still need to be tough on each other for the sake of the work.
So there still has to be that hard edge?
Does it always take an external push for you to finally drop an idea thats not working?
PD:Its probably usually external.
Not necessarily a person though.
A lot of times, its the audience.
Why isnt it working?
And in the long-run, sometimes youre justwrong.The audience is the final arbiter.
PD:Thats what I mean.
Even in those cases…
JR:He sort of symbolizes that process.
You have to have a thick skin and a kill your darlings approach there Id imagine?
We rely on each other to be honest.
PD:You make a run at look at it as a third thing.
Michael Giacchino (composer onInside Out,The Incredibles,Up) talks about this.
Its notme.Its something out there, and so lets poke at it.
PD:Oh yeah.
So tell me aboutInside Out, the very bad film.
PD:Which one?
[laughs]
JR:They all had their merits.
You could always see through the weeds that there was something in there.
then we realise, Theyre not even sayingmovie.Wed rather them say This is a really badmovie.
[PD laughs] I think this movie was just fragile with a lot more variables than others.
PD:Theres a lot of abstraction.
JR:We all swore that was right too!
It was funny and we were getting there, you know.
PD:It seemed important.
That Joy and Fear was the wrong combination?
PD:That was me.
I think all of us could kind of feel it.
What action is she going to take based on what shes learned from Fear?
And it just wasntanything.
Sadness is going to be what changes Joy and what makes her change.
Can I go back a few years.
You directed the English voice cast for Studio GhiblisHowls Moving Castle.
That was beforeUp, I think.
JR:It was sort of in the middle ofUp, wasnt it?
PD:Its a good question.
[Pause]
My initial gut was to venture to make sense of things that were mysterious to me.
Things that I didnt understand.
I pushed like, can we change this dialogue?
I would take a stab at ask Miyazaki what he intended and I would never get any answer.
If its a mystery, it should remain a mystery.
But lifes not really like that.
Im being pushed to wrap up, so one final question.
My colleague recently interviewed the Irish animators who madeSong Of The Sea.
JR:Tomm Moore?
JR:My kids, who are nine, seven and three, itstheirfavourite.
They want to watch it all the time.
PD:[To JR] Did you get him to draw something for them?
Its my kidsthey dont know who makes what, they dont care, they just see something beautiful.
For them, it felt like the industry saying we still need independent animators like you.
PD:Yeah, totally.
Thats what keeps people awake.
In smaller budget films, people are able to explore more fringe or less mass things.
Pete Docter and Jonas Rivera, thank you very much!
Inside Out is out now.
