Few contemporary film composers have made an impact quite like John Powell.
I wondered was there a particular film score that inspired you to become a film composer?
Ive asked myself this many times and Ive been asked it many times.
My relationship with cinema is not very cinematic.
I grew up in a little town in England that didnt have much of a cinema.
I remember seeing one film there as a kid, which wasThe Jungle Book.
I never saw the firstStar Warsmovies in the cinema.
One of my favourites wasThe Great Escapeand I remember that being very intriguing.
Its not just the main theme, which was intended as a parody ofBridge On The River Kwai.
Its also the other stuff thats heavily influenced by the Schillinger Method that was on the curriculum at Berklee.
The interesting, American harmonic stuff, like the bike chase for instance when Steve McQueen jumps the fence.
I did really enjoy that early 20th century American style like Aaron Copland.
Its classically sophisticated but theres a lot of force to it.
I remember watchingWest Side Storyand thinking, thats how music in film should work.
Thats probably caused me a lot of grief over the years.
Because in that instance, the music is the story.
I also used to watch a lot of cartoons likeTom And Jerry,Scooby Dooand stuff.
It was very confusing!
And also at the time I was more interested in classical music.
Your arrival in Hollywood coincided with the rise of Hans Zimmers Remote Control studio then known as Media Ventures.
You got a foot in the door there so how did that come about?
Hed left by the time I started working there but he still had contacts.
I was using the tech in a way that others werent necessarily bothering with.
So the first time I met him was at Air Edel.
He liked me and he gave me more sounds and samplers to help him try and do it.
I ended up helping this other composer who was ghost writing for him.
We presented a demo, which nowadays is completely normal but back then no-one was doing it besides Hans.
So once I took away information from that experience, I flourished.
So I am very much a child of that technique, of demoing everything to the nth degree.
It gives me control over the way I like to construct things.
From there you went on to scoreFace/Offfor John Woo, which was an enormous project.
Did anything from that inform your later experiences writing film music?
That was a gig that came into Media Ventures and they wanted Hans.
They didnt want anyone else, they wanted Hans.
He had worked with John onBroken Arrowso he really wanted him to do it, but Hans couldnt.
I played them these demos and the editor was questioning whether or not Hans had written the tunes.
He hadnt, although he had given me a lot of advice along the way.
And they agreed to let me do it with Hans producing.
Hes a very good teacher.
Hed have been a great teacher had he not gone into scoring.
So I learned so much from that.
I learned a lot technically, I learned a lot emotionally.
I have my own voice and I will make it work.
If it does work, great.
Otherwise, theres a good chance Ill get fired for doing that.
At the same time I was aware I was being hired for particular kind of sound.
Today I wouldnt be hired for an animated film on the basis of an atonal score.
It wouldnt be what they need.
WithBourneeverything sounds like the opposite of how I would have done it there.
Doug Liman hired me not even knowing Id been connected with Hans.
He liked them and just from the conversations I had I knew he wanted something different.
On that score Carter Burwell was originally hired but didnt give the filmmakers what they wanted.
You then came in and revolutionised the tone of the music.
So it was a problematic film and then they brought in Carter.
I think in a wider sense they were also trying to figure out the overall tone of the movie.
I just got a lucky break.
So it was lucky for me.
One of my favourites of your early scores isEndurance, which is a beautiful work.
How much of a challenge is it to emphasise emotion in music without becoming too overwrought?
Thats a tough one.
I came ontoEndurancebefore I didFace/Off.
It was produced by Terrence Malick and I didnt know him or the film.
He and Hans were going to do bothEnduranceandThe Thin Red Linetogether.
But Hans was caught up with other things and invited me into a meeting with Terry forEndurance.
So he comes in and he doesnt know me and hes the most wonderfully poetic person.
He treats you as an artist.
[laughs] He hadnt written anything!
He tap danced like Fred Astaire.
And Terry was very happy.
Then afterFace/Off, I came back and finished it off.
Overwroughtness is always hard.
At a certain point Terry had that temped in for the final race.
You know Hans worked so hard onThe Thin Red Lineto get rid of all the temps.
I believe there was only one piece left in the entire film.
But Terry was a very important part of my education in terms of how films can work.
Just me knowing that here was somebody who didnt want the usual schmaltz.
He wasnt interested in what Hollywood usually produced for such films.
I kind of fell into film.
I went into advertising because it paid the bills then I went into a lot of other stuff.
Musical stuff for art installations, theatre and other things.
Film music kind of got lost in there.
I was much more interested in composition and record production as well.
I then came into a film scenario where the first person I got to work with was so open.
That led me to believe there was a chance of always being less Hollywood.
There were other ways for me to create that kind of emotional context.
Animation is a genre to which youve returned many times.
What was it about that collaboration that clicked?
The first time I met Harry he was helping Hans on the score forThe Prince Of Egypt.
I was doing a lot of song production work on that.
I didnt do much of the score I think I tried and fucked it up a bit.
So Hans just kept me on the songs.
When it came toAntzhe wanted Hans, but he couldnt do it.
I think Hans suggested some other, non-Media Ventures people.
I think it was Craig Armstrong and Marius de Vries.
He felt they were really cool because theyd done some amazing scores likeRomeo & Juliet.
But Jeffrey said, well what about John and Harry?
Were both very different people, different styles of thought, different egos.
It was very interesting working with Harry because Hans would pit us against each other, somewhat.
Hans would call me into Harrys room and Id hear something really fucking good.
Id then leave thinking, Christ I really need to up my game.
We worked hard with each other but against each other as well.
That madeChicken Runwork very well, as well.
We both worked very hard on that.
Would you agree its a tricky balancing act between being funny and sincere?
Im currently sat here on the new one,Ferdinand, literally trying to figure that one out.
Every scene in every film I do, I fight with that all the time.
I dont know what the answer is.
I know that I watch certain films and feel that the music is way over the top and irritating.
What I call over-modulated.
They cut together the storyboards using the temp music.
That can be three years before the film comes out.
Slowly they will then start to record the voices and the movie will go into production.
But in the beginning theyre really just working with these story reels that are edited together.
Its irritating if something is forced on you.
If it isnt naturally funny, and the music is trying to be funny, then people sense that.
Im sure Ive been guilty of going both ways sometimes either too much or too little.
Two of the ones you got absolutely right were yourHow To Dragon Your Dragonscores, which are both magnificent.
The first one netted you an Oscar nomination so I wondered if that was a watershed moment for you?
Well, I think Id come to terms with the fact that I wasnt doing Oscar films.
The kind of films I like doing arent really the ones that attract that kind of attention.
Ive always wanted to write for films that in 50 years people will still be watching.
So that question about the Oscar is hard.
Ive instantly regretted it because its boring and dull.
It just happens thatDragonwas already a really beautiful film without me.
You know you might write a pretty shitty score for an Oscar film.
If you look at the history of the Oscars, it bears that out.
However it’s possible for you to say it may be shitty music but its right for the movie.
I do have a problem writing shitty music.
Its sometimes hard to compose music for the film if whats needed is to write something dull.
Ive always felt Ive needed to write something that has musical integrity.
The firstDragonwas the first film Id ever done for DreamWorks without anybody else.
Before Id always done them in collaboration with Hans, or Harry, or somebody else.
I was showing I was a big boy.
[laughs] A really good film gives you everything to go on.
I remember the first time I watchedShrekthinking, well theres not much to do, its all there.
My favourite films are not arty films.
[laughs] Im really not a cinephile.
I sat through three and a half hours of KurosawasRanbut I dont necessarily have a huge knowledge of cinema.
Given your scores feature a dynamic mixture of orchestra, percussion and electronics, do you agree with that?
I dont think so.
He could manipulate his writing for film.
He had such a magnificent understanding of storytelling.
Ive seen a lot of films that Ive loved that havent used the orchestra.
I can get the same feeling out of the first Atlantic album by Aretha Franklin.
Thats as much a work of art as Beethovens Fifth.
I cant see the difference.
Different types of music can create the same feeling.
That feeling of transcendence.
If you think of Ry CoodersParis, Texasfor instance thats just one slide guitar.
And I also lovedBrokeback Mountainby Gustavo Santaolalla.
So there are lot of different ways of doing it.
Could something sound incredibly dated?
And thats the danger.
Yet its very hard to tell what year many of John Williams scores were composed in.
He always uses an orchestra because its timeless.
Thats one of the beautiful things about using an orchestra.
You really can be timeless but you also might be missing an opportunity to speak with different musical language.
How much of a challenge is it to seek out projects that have that humane input?
Well… [pauses] Look, Ive been very lucky.
Ive had lots of work and dont need to worry about money ever again.
I was in two minds aboutFace/Offas to whether it was too violent.
Heroism comes in all sorts of forms.
Being the best fighter is just one them.
One of the dangerous things you’re able to do is make violence acceptable.
IfThe A-Teamhad shown the actual results of such carnage, it would have been horrific.
Its interesting, this indoctrination that continues to happen in Hollywood.
Without screenwriters, none of us would have any work, I should say that first.
The second thing that screenwriters need to realise is they need to find some new fucking tricks.
Its not fair that every time you better move the story forward, you torture somebody.
But everybody does it.
Its like an expositional technique.
Having seen it, thats exactly what does happen.
Thats one of the best things about the movie.
Well, thats good!
We need more of those kinds of films!
One final question and this moves beyond film music into other styles of music youve composed.
Youve written several very acclaimed concert works including your oratorioA Prussian RequiemandThe Prize Is Still Mine.
Ive always been a composer, I just got sidetracked into writing music for Hollywood.
Writing music is something I get joy from doing and I want to keep doing it.
Its been interesting writing music away from the requirements of other peoples stories.
Ultimately it all boiled down to one jealous, narcissistic man.
Did this book make Kennedy think laterally about how to steer around such terrible moments?
Its a strange crashing together of musical styles that I love, orchestra and Gospel.
Ive always loved Gospel music.
It ended up sounding like Gospel music by Vaughan Williams.
Another piece of mine is having its world premiere on 7th July at Milton Court in London.
Eric Whitacre asked me to write something for one of his concerts.
All three will all be released together on one album at the end of the year.
So if that works for people Ill keep writing.
Ill try and figure out a way to write it thats interesting to people or not.
Im lucky enough to be able to do it so I think I should keep trying.
kindly do!John Powell, thank you very much.
John Powell will appear in the BAFTA Conversations with Screen Composers series at the Royal Albert Hall on Monday.
The date has now sold out, but for other upcoming film events at the Hall, gohere.
